From the Classroom to the Hunting Stand – Dr. Thomas White

Adam: Not everyone ends up in higher education and much of today's colleges are leading many of our young people away from following Jesus Christ. There's a place in the very center of the USA that offers most every educational opportunity and keeps Christ at the very center of education. On today's program, we'll meet the president of the largest solid Christian educational facilities in the country. We'll share in the history of Cedarville University and how God's Great Outdoors began in the halls of this facility. We'll share in the celebration of the 30th anniversary of God's Great Outdoors. And when we're done sharing about the history of our ministry and the university, we'll learn some about the history of the president of Cedarville and then share in some of the passion he has for the outdoors. Let's jump right into today's program. We hope that you are spoken to as we go down the trail to adventure in God's Great Outdoors.
Dean Hulce: Welcome to God's Great Outdoors on the trail to adventure and today the trail has brought us to Cedarville University in Cedarville, Ohio. We've got a special guest today, the president of Cedarville, and we've also got another board member, Paul Gathany, whose voice has been on the show lots of times over the years. Paul is with us because he's got history, a lot of history in Cedarville. But Dr. White, thank you for being with us.
Dr. Thomas White: It's great to be on here.
Dean Hulce: I've heard about you as I've said before that Cedarville comes up in almost every one of our meetings. It is really good to finally be here. You know, I think as we get going, I would love to talk about the history between Cedarville and God's Great Outdoors because I think that Paul, as you lead in, Paul, you can share how that happened originally here for that history because we're celebrating our 30th anniversary and it's great to be together for that. So why don't you share that with us?
Paul Gathany: Well, there was a day in 1995 when my afternoon announcer, John Skillman, brought in a fellow that he had interviewed numbers of times on outdoor sports, especially guys involved as Christians in outdoor sports. And he brought him into my office and he came first and he said, "Jerry wants to talk to you about something. He has an idea for a radio program." Well, a lot of people have lots of ideas for radio programs. So, and in fact I had a stack of things on my desk. But as Jerry and I talked, I really sensed that he had a heart for outdoors ministry and especially Christians that were involved in outdoor ministry and trying to share the Gospel with people through that ministry. And so, as we talked, he wanted time on our radio station. That's what he wanted. And I said, "Well Jerry, you just bring me a tape or a program and I'll listen to it and we'll see." So sometime later, several months later, he came back with the recording and as we listened to it, we evaluated it, etc. And as we talked, I said, "Jerry, you know, this is bigger than WCDR or CDR Radio Network. You really need to think about going national with this." And that put a burr under his saddle. And he after that would call me once in a while and he and his wife, Cindy, were praying about what that all meant and I shared some things as to what it would mean if he were to do that. Anyway, he came back later and said they were ready to do it and he had a good program. And so we put it on WCDR at that time and that's in '96 is when it began. So that was the first program and we're at somewhere around 300 stations now.
Dean Hulce: 350 almost with outside stations in full power.
Paul Gathany: Yeah, and including some network across Canada. And so, you know, we see the Lord's blessing on it through the years and He has provided and sustained and we're so grateful for it. So yeah, it's been really neat. The thing, can I go even a step back from there because this is déjà vu all over again. Back in 1960, it would have been early 1960, David Jeremiah and I sat right here in this room where we're talking right now. It was Dr. Jeremiah right across the desk right over there.
Dean Hulce: Well, the furniture may not have changed since you were here. It is beautiful, though.
Paul Gathany: And Dr. Jeremiah shared his vision to have a radio ministry at Cedarville. And so he kind of put us in charge of doing some of the things that needed to be done. I won't go into details, but the studio ended up being on the third floor of this building for like three years and all the R&D and everything that went into it was up there. And it was basically an empty space up there. And then we moved down across the way here for the rest of the years. But yeah, it's neat to look back and see how God blessed his ministry. And I'm so grateful for the time I was to be here at Cedarville and spend time in the ministry of Gospel broadcasting.
Dean Hulce: Well, that's great. Dr. White, I don't know how much of that you knew specifics on, but I would assume most of it. But do you, have you ever had a connection with God's Great Outdoors before today?
Dr. Thomas White: I've listened before, but no, not a major connection at all. And so it's great to learn more about it.
Dean Hulce: It is very interesting to me and Paul has been an amazing help to me because when I came on, I've been on that side of the table lots of times, but I had never been on this side. And God has done some great things. Just for your information, we just recently picked up a station that's up in Maine and now we go from the North Shore of Alaska almost down to the Rio Grande River in Texas and over to South Florida and back up to Maine again. So God has really blessed and the last few years especially, it's been growing and doing very, very well. I'd love to talk a little bit, we're going to talk some hunting. We've already talked a little bit of hunting earlier today. But there are some things here I'd love to, Paul actually said, and I'm not real familiar with it, but he talked about 1,000 days. And maybe you can fill us in and a little bit, as much as you want to fill in about Cedarville because a lot of our listeners have no idea anything about Cedarville.
Dr. Thomas White: That's true. Cedarville is located in Cedarville, Ohio. It's in the middle of nowhere. We like to say it's 20 miles from any known form of sin, but it's really located in between Cincinnati and Columbus. We have 7,400 students total now, over 150 different degree majors. So, you can do anything from a Bible degree to a PharmD to a PA program to cyber security, whatever you'd like to do and study here, you can do that. The thing that makes Cedarville unique is that every student has a profession of faith. All of our faculty and staff sign our doctrinal statement every year. We have chapel five days a week so that we'll grow in godliness, and we have a Bible minor for every undergraduate major with five classes. So, that way we know what we believe and we're equipped to articulate that in a culture that really has lost its mind. And so, we want to make sure we do this in the right way that honors God. You mentioned the 1,000 days. That's how I like to talk about a student's experience at Cedarville. So, in Psalm 90, verse 12, the Bible says, "Lord, teach us to number our days so that we may have a heart of wisdom." That's the end goal of it. When you look back through Scripture, you see in the Babylonian captivity that God took the best and the brightest and they were exiled into Babylon, went through three years of education, and then they stood before the king. And the king actually said that they were head and shoulders above everybody else. They were the best and the brightest, but they were trained to be productive Babylonian citizens. You think about Jesus. He's with the disciples for three years. Again, that number comes up. He lives life with them, tells them stories, eats meals together, walks through the great outdoors with them, tells parables, and just lives with them. You think about Paul. He goes to the wilderness for three years to prepare for his vocational calling. Three years, roughly 1,000 days. We get our students for four, but in those four years, we send them home every summer and every winter break. So, we have them for roughly 1,000 days. So, what we want to do here at Cedarville is we want to educate our students to be productive Kingdom citizens. We want them to be head and shoulders above everybody else for God's Kingdom and to expand His Kingdom. And we want to live life with them just like Jesus did. We want to eat meals with them in Chick-fil-A here on campus and we want to go to volleyball games and we want to listen to music and worship alongside them and go to chapel with them, walk through hallways, have great conversations in offices, have our advisors pour into their lives, and have classes and other things that we just live life together. And then as Paul prepared for his vocation, we want to prepare every student for their vocation. We don't talk about occupations around here. We don't talk about jobs that just make money. We believe God has called us all to do something. He's equipped us all with God-given gifts and God-given passions. If we align those two and train with excellence, then that becomes a platform for Gospel ministry for the rest of our life. So, we want our students thinking about their calling and we want them to prepare with excellence. If you're doing what you love, you're not going to feel like you're working a day in your life. And if you're using your passions and your gifts, you're a good steward and you're going to honor God in that. And so, that's what we try to train our students to do. We want them to graduate and launch out loving Jesus more than when they showed up on campus, loving their local church more than when they showed up on campus, and equipped to look back on these 1,000 days as a place where they made friends that would last a lifetime and memories that they'll cherish forever, but now ready, ready to go. It's a greenhouse. It's not a bubble. It's a greenhouse. And in a greenhouse, you want to grow deep roots, but you do so for the purpose of being planted beside streams of living water as Psalm 1 says. You don't do so to stay in the greenhouse for the rest of your life. It's to go and to bear fruit in due season. And that's what we want every one of our students to do.
Dean Hulce: As we've talked already, this is really, as you're talking, I'm thinking, this is a family. It really is. And we see that within God's Great Outdoors. When the name comes up Cedarville, it usually has connections with eight or 10 other people. And it's talked about. And as we walk through, there's not many students here right now, a handful as we walk through and first of all to gorgeous campus. It was beautiful. And I got a chance to walk into Warren Wiersbe's library today and that was very special for me. But it is, there is a family. And you can just as you see the way this is built around with the places to eat, the cafeteria, it's really built to be like a family. And I really appreciate that. I did notice, I think I read online there's 850 acres here, is that correct?
Dr. Thomas White: We actually have more than that now. We keep buying new property and additional property. We just bought another 100 or so acres just north of campus. And so, a lot of it's still in beans and corn. We lease it out to be farmed if we're not using it and make sure we're being good stewards of it as well. But we do have a lot of land around here.
Dean Hulce: I want to go into a little bit of your background and how you ended up here. But before we do that, we have to take a short break. So Adam can come on and tell people how they can come alongside us and thank those that do support us now. But that'll just be a minute. We'll be right back with God's Great Outdoors on the trail to adventure.
Adam: For over 30 years, God's Great Outdoors trail to adventure has been broadcast out to win men and women, boys and girls to Jesus Christ. This is only possible by the generosity of our listeners. Thank you to all who have supported in the past. God has blessed us because of you. We pray that you feel His blessings as well. Additional underwriting support has been provided by Matthews Archery, the leader in the archery industry. Mission Archery, with revolutionary crossbow technology. Three Rivers Archery, supplying everything you need to make your own traditional archery equipment. Hunter Safety Systems, saving lives is what we do. Centershot Ministries, hit the mark with Centershot. Wheelchair Whitetails, guided whitetail deer hunts for wheelchair-bound disabled hunters. And Hogdon Powder Company, the gunpowder people, delivering reliable performance and precision you can trust every time. God's Great Outdoors has produced many ministry tools, including tracts, DVDs, and books to help you reach others for Jesus Christ. You can access these items, other God's Great Outdoors items, and so much more at our website, godsgreatoutdoors.org. That's godsgreatoutdoors.org.
Dean Hulce: Welcome back to God's Great Outdoors on the trail to adventure again. We're in Cedarville University in Cedarville, Ohio. We've got Dr. White with us, the president at Cedarville, and also Paul Gathany, who's been on the board for years and actually was part of the very starting of the radio station here first of all at Cedarville many years ago. I don't know how many, but I know you were here 42 years, is that right Paul?
Paul Gathany: 43 on staff.
Dean Hulce: And Dr. White, how long have you been here?
Dr. Thomas White: I've been here 13 years now, starting 14. So I still got a ways to go to catch up to this guy.
Dean Hulce: And I'm assuming you're from Pennsylvania some place?
Dr. Thomas White: No, I'm from South Carolina.
Dean Hulce: Really? But you've got a Pittsburgh Steelers helmet on your shelf.
Dr. Thomas White: Well, in South Carolina in the '70s, I was born in '73, you didn't have many options in NFL teams. And so it was either the Atlanta Falcons with Bartkowski or the Redskins, but in the '70s, the Steelers had the Steel Curtain defense. And my grandfather loved Pittsburgh, so that meant my mom and my dad both liked Pittsburgh and so I was born a die-hard Steelers fan and have been ever since. And so that's actually a Terry Bradshaw autographed football up in there.
Dean Hulce: You couldn't enjoy football any more than watching Terry Bradshaw play. That's true. Brett Favre, same mentality.
Dr. Thomas White: They're very similar. You're right. And that Steel Curtain defense. I like defensive football, I like hard hits, and the Steelers have provided that until the rules and necessity kind of limited it down some.
Dean Hulce: And there's probably no play more famous or more enjoyable than the Immaculate Reception.
Dr. Thomas White: That's true. Franco Harris, that was a great play. The other thing I love about Pittsburgh is the family atmosphere. With the Rooneys, it just seems like they love taking care of people and treating people well. And so I've always enjoyed that about Pittsburgh as well.
Dean Hulce: Well, I had a pastor that was a Pittsburgh Steelers fan and it was usually when they played the Packers. I live north of Green Bay about an hour and a half and there was always kind of a big rivalry who was going to have to wear the Steelers or the Packers tie the next week.
Dr. Thomas White: Well, you guys got us in one of the Super Bowls, but now we got your quarterback, so maybe he'll give us back a Super Bowl to take care of it. I hope he does for you.
Dean Hulce: Why don't you explain to us how you got from wherever you were at in South Carolina? Your accent, if you had it before, it's somewhat gone from South Carolina.
Dr. Thomas White: Well, I definitely had it before. I also had improper grammar because where I grew up, "he done it" and "we was" is the way everybody talks. And fixing can be all parts of speech. And I graduated from college, went to seminary at Southeastern Seminary in North Carolina. That's where I met my wife. I was married there and did an M.Div and then did a PhD and then moved to Texas, to Fort Worth, Texas where I served at Southwestern Seminary for nine years. And then Cedarville called me to come here. Been here now for 13 years. So I think Texas pulled a little bit of the South Carolina accent away, but then living in Ohio for 13 years and being on an educational institution with students literally from every state in the union and 17 other countries as you engage with students and try to speak correctly at an educational institution. But I'm really just a country boy at heart.
Dean Hulce: Well, you got to experience two completely separate types of barbecue in the one that most people wouldn't call barbecue the way that South Carolina do. And I've been in Edgefield and got to eat Southeastern barbecue.
Dr. Thomas White: Well, they're missing out because the Carolinas' vinegar-based barbecue from Smithfield's was my favorite. I still enjoy it when I go back. And now Texas brisket, it's incredible. And so I love some Texas brisket while I was there as well.
Dean Hulce: Me too. I spend about two to three, four weeks in Texas every winter doing ministry. And our ministry has grown tremendously in the last couple of years in Texas. Biggest group of sportsmen and women in the world. So that's been good. Why don't you, if you would, we've got just a few minutes left in the radio program already. But why don't you tell us, because in the podcast we'll probably tell some hunting stories. But why don't you tell us how you got into hunting? Were you raised hunting?
Dr. Thomas White: I was not. My dad was not a hunter. I wanted to learn how to do it. So I had a best friend that his father was a hunter. They went hunting. I went with them. He showed me the ropes. I was with him when I shot my first doe. I was with my best friend when I shot my first buck in South Carolina and it was a really big seven-pointer. It wasn't impressive, but it was 196 pounds, which is big for a South Carolina deer. And so he told me I needed to mount it. I knew nothing. I still know nothing compared to a lot of your listeners. But I enjoy being out there. Texas, I learned a lot more about hunting. And then when you move to Ohio and you're a bow hunter and the deer are as plentiful and as big as they are here, it's a little slice of heaven.
Dean Hulce: It is. And then you've got a couple of board of trustee members that are, one is really into shooting and then Rob Waldner, who's been on the program and we've talked actually with him and Joe Coy. I don't know if you know Joe, has been on the program separately. And you've got really good ins into some hunting there.
Dr. Thomas White: Well, the thing I was most worried about as just a minister of the Gospel when I came to Cedarville was donor relations and fundraising. And what God did is He allowed some of our strongest supporters to be interested in scuba diving and hunting. And those were two things that I love to do and can relate to them well in. And so I spend a lot of time doing things I love with people that I have grown to love and that's part of what I get to call work. I don't know if that's really fair, but that's part of my job.
Dean Hulce: It is. And that's just building relationships.
Dr. Thomas White: That's right.
Dean Hulce: And before we get off the radio, I just, I want to talk briefly because I was told this, and I don't remember who told me this, but you've actually been out to help stuff move into some dorm rooms and help with, and that's kind of the heart of this school as well.
Dr. Thomas White: Yeah, so I would say our number one leadership principle is called seeking to serve. And we want to go out and serve others. So on our move-in day that will happen next Friday, we'll be out helping students to move into their dorms. We'll have a bunch of students out doing it and our faculty and staff will be out as well helping in that regard. But the whole reason we do that is because Christ sought to serve us and we just want to be like our Savior. And if our Savior did it, well we better do it. And so we want to make sure that we're serving others just like He served us by dying on the cross and providing an opportunity for us to be saved and forgiven of our sins. So serving is just built into our character and our DNA.
Dean Hulce: That's great. One last thing that I want to talk about because you brought this up is that all of your students are leaving here not going into a job, but they're really going into ministry. I mean if we're not going into ministry we're messing up. I mean Matthew 28 says go into all the world and preach the gospel. That "all the world" is wherever we are at that time. And that's even in your students. I understand that they're encouraged to go out to churches or maybe they're required to go out and serve, help serve in some churches and stuff as well. And that's so important. So many of us I think miss that in our world today that wherever we're at, we're in ministry, we're in missions.
Dr. Thomas White: Well, I don't believe there's a divide that should exist between what we would call the sacred and the secular. I believe the word vocation comes from the Latin vocare, which means to call. I believe we are all called to be Christians, we're all called to be involved in our local church, we're all called to serve the Lord, and to use our gifts to do that. So wherever He's placed me, whatever given vocation we have, it's my obligation to serve with excellence and to make sure that I'm spreading the Gospel and increasing the Kingdom of God as I do that. I think that's how we find fulfillment. So I feel so bad for all of those people who are in churches who think they're just going to a job and that has nothing to do with ministry because the people they're going to encounter their pastor will likely never meet. And God has a plan and a purpose for them to share the truth of the Gospel, to help them grow, to invest in their lives. And so I believe we should be practicing hospitality, that we should be utilizing our gifts for the Kingdom, and we should be sharing the Gospel wherever the Lord places us.
Dean Hulce: I totally agree. I think that so many, and so many don't learn that till late in life. And if you guys are instilling that in your students, there's nothing more important that you can instill in them than that in my opinion. All the other things are important, but if we lose out on the fact that we're the only Jesus that some people will see until they come to Him, and if we don't have that embedded in our heart, we're missing out. So I appreciate that. Well, it's been great already. Our radio time is out and it goes by fast. And we do want, we are going to get into the podcast and talk a little bit more about the outdoors. And I'd love for you to talk about your time when you were on the stage with your bow and I had, I got to see that actually. I don't know when you did that, but I was sent that long before I thought about even coming here. So that impressed me right there because it tells you that you had a passion that connected the outdoors to the Lord and that's a great thing. And that's what we're doing. We're just, we're just fun here, stories of what men and women are doing for the Lord and how He's drawing them in the outdoors. Thank you for your time.
Dr. Thomas White: Thank you. Thanks for having me on.
Dean Hulce: Thanks, Paul, for joining us.
Paul Gathany: Oh, you're very welcome. It's been a privilege.
Dean Hulce: It has been for me as well. We would like our listeners to know that we are going to be here every week. Please join us here on your Christian radio station. If you can't get there, get to the podcast, go to our website, godsgreatoutdoors.org. You can listen now and it'll play the podcast there. But if you can, listen on your local Christian radio station. Join us every week as we travel down the trail to adventure in God's Great Outdoors.
Adam: For over 30 years, God's Great Outdoors trail to adventure has been broadcast out to win men and women, boys and girls to Jesus Christ. This is only possible by the generosity of our listeners. Thank you to all who have supported in the past. God has blessed us because of you. We pray that you feel His blessings as well. Additional underwriting support has been provided by Matthews Archery, the leader in the archery industry. Mission Archery, with revolutionary crossbow technology. Three Rivers Archery, supplying everything you need to make your own traditional archery equipment. Hunter Safety Systems, saving lives is what we do. Centershot Ministries, hit the mark with Centershot. Wheelchair Whitetails, guided whitetail deer hunts for wheelchair-bound disabled hunters. And Hogdon Powder Company, the gunpowder people, delivering reliable performance and precision you can trust every time. God's Great Outdoors has produced many ministry tools, including tracts, DVDs, and books to help you reach others for Jesus Christ. You can access these items, other God's Great Outdoors items, and so much more at our website, godsgreatoutdoors.org. That's godsgreatoutdoors.org.
Dean Hulce: Welcome to the trail to adventure podcast again. We're in Cedarville, Ohio, at Cedarville University. And we're blessed to have Dr. White with us, the president at Cedarville. Good to have you with us.
Dr. Thomas White: Great to be here.
Dean Hulce: We had fun in the radio, I'm sorry, and we got Paul Gathany with us. And Paul is, I should say, Paul helped put on the first radio program here at WCDR at the time. And Paul, good to have you with us.
Paul Gathany: Thank you. It was a privilege to be included here.
Dean Hulce: It's been fun. Paul gets on about twice a year, you've been coming on with me. And I think that the history of God's Great Outdoors, because we've been very, very blessed, we were talking we're really at all four corners of North America right now. And that's only by God, not by Dean and not by Paul. And so we've been very blessed. I was impressed, Dr. White, a few years ago, someone sent me a tape and I think it was actually Will Dobson who just walked out and he said you got to see this. And it was a chapel service that you were there and I was impressed because you were holding a Matthews bow. And Matthews, as you know, is one of our biggest supporters and has been for 20-plus years. Matt McPherson, I've done a show with Matt, which was amazing. He's got a mind, when you get a chance to meet him someday, he is everything centers around the Lord. I mean all the other things are second as much as God has blessed him. I mean between the archery equipment and the guitars and all the other things he does, the films, everything. But he is that and I was so happy to see that Matthews bow. But why don't you tell us about that chapel service and what it was all about?
Dr. Thomas White: Yeah, so that bow was actually special because his brother is the one who gave me that particular bow because he saw my bow and said, "Well, your technology is too old. You need something a little more current." And so he gifted me with that particular bow and I've shot Matthews now for, goodness, I guess it's well over 15 years. And so when I was hunting in Texas and now hunting in Ohio, always shot with a Matthews compound bow. And so I had that on stage as a sermon illustration because I was preaching through Psalms and Psalm 127. And that Psalm tells us unless the Lord builds the house you labor in vain, unless the Lord protects, your watching in vain. But it also goes to the fact to say that children are a blessing of the Lord and they're like arrows in the quiver of a warrior. And I think when we think about our children like arrows in a quiver, they're not meant to be kept in the quiver. They're meant to be shot out. They're meant to be launched. And when you're launching out, you have to aim at the right target. And if you know anything about archery, if you're slightly off target, the farther away it goes, the more off target it's going to get. And so what I wanted to communicate to our students was that thought process of when they have children, those children don't belong to them. Being a parent is a great stewardship, but that stewardship includes knowing that one day the goal is for those children to launch out and to serve the Lord and the target is the Gospel. The target's Jesus Christ. It's the Kingdom. So all along the way we are aiming our children. And if we aim them at the wrong things, well they're going to go astray and go off. So we better make sure we're aiming at the right thing. So I had the bow on stage because I enjoy it, I like it. I'm just a country boy at heart and I wanted to have a visual representation that would engage our men, too. Because I think in our society, a lot of times men are being told don't be men and I want to engage our young men to stand up and be the men of God that God has called them to be and to go out and conquer and do all the things that we love to do and hunt and explore the wilderness and be on great adventures and do hard things. That was just, that's just part of me. And so I like authenticity and I like openness and so I used the bow for that illustration, which I think fits the text just perfectly.
Dean Hulce: You know, I think as parents, a lot of fathers that had hunted and had fished as younger and they kind of lose interest and they don't take their kids with them. I see lots of fathers that don't bring their kids. And we, I grew up in an area your dad didn't hunt. I grew up in an area where my dad hunted. But we were with, you know, we were at hunting camp on weekends, we were always back by Sunday morning to be back in church. You know, that was just a, there was no question to that. We were going to be in church Sunday morning. But he taught us how to do all those things and he pointed us in the right direction. And I remember him telling me, I just shared this with somebody the other day, hunting with my dad, walking behind him as a little boy. And my dad was, he was strict. He was loving, but he was strict. And I was sometimes I'd be dragging my feet in the woods and he would look over his shoulder and you know, just all I had, all he had to do was look and I knew what I was doing. One time I snapped a twig with my as I was walking and my dad turned around and he knelt down and he said, "Let me show you how to place your feet and where to place your feet to walk in the right way." And at the time, that's always stuck with me because as I grew in the Lord, that's exactly what God does for us. "Let me show you." And he did it in a loving way, which normally he would have just scolded and I would have known I was wrong. But he literally knelt down and grabbed my foot and showed me. But that's exactly what you when you talked about that verse is getting your kids ready to go. And launch and really, that's what you're doing as university, you're taking those kids that are coming, young people that are coming being launched out and you're helping them go from there.
Dr. Thomas White: That's right. And there's so many great illustrations because they're even, they're different arrows. Depending on what you're hunting or what you're doing you want a different tip. And God has designed students and our children to be different in different ways and it's our job to make sure that we're using them in the right way, guiding them in the right way. They're not supposed to be just like me. They're supposed to use their gifts and aim that in God's direction. So many good hunting illustrations. And I've, one of my most special moments was taking my son out and him getting his first deer and watching the excitement on his face and going through all the hard things to get to the moment of excitement and success and then how we take care and steward when God gives us a gift like that. And so it's great moments.
Dean Hulce: And you have gotten to do I wouldn't say an abundance of hunting but you've been blessed. And as I said, you've got one board member in Michigan that loves to hunt and loves to hunt enough that he started, you know, he had enough business already going but he started a hunting products business with Rob with Fourth Arrow. Most of our listeners if they enjoy videoing their own hunting they would know Fourth Arrow Archery and their arms, the camera arms. But you've gotten to hunt with him quite a bit. What would be your favorite hunt?
Dr. Thomas White: So, favorite hunt is that's hard to narrow down. But one quick story before I do favorite hunt is well this has got to be up there on the favorite hunts. My best Ohio buck was about 148 points scored. It was an all-Ohio buck. It was a decent buck. Your listeners have probably killed better, but it was a decent buck for me. And I was in a stand, it was early in the morning, and I had the Final Rest, which is another product from Rob Waldner and his company. And so the Final Rest was there and I had my bow was in the Final Rest early in the morning. I didn't even have the window up. I was keeping my scent out and all of a sudden the target buck starts trotting through. It's not looking to eat, it's just coming through and I had to hold the window up with one hand and shoot one-handed with a bow. It was not a compound bow, but shoot one-handed with my crossbow. And if I hadn't had it on the Final Rest, there's no way I would have been able to get it up and get the shot off and was able to make the perfect shot. It was good, went like 30 yards and was recovered and so it worked out well, but it was maybe a little bit risky. But it's the target buck on the morning of the hunt and so I owe Rob that. But I've also been hunting bears in Canada with Rob. I've been to his place in Michigan and hunted with him there as well. And then also been out west on a mule deer and elk hunt before. And so spent a lot of time with Rob Waldner. Great guy, love what he's up to. Favorite hunt would have to be one of the bear hunts in Canada with him. And so the thing I love the most about it, which your listeners will understand, is you get a group of guys together who all love the Lord and they're able to go and get away in nature and for me it's just a great time to decompress. When you're doing a bear hunt, it's a long sit. You're in the middle of the woods, there's nobody to talk to but God or maybe the bears if they're coming up your tree. But God, and so I'm able just to read my Bible and to pray and to talk to God and to listen and just to think clearly. And in this world where we can't get away from our devices, I think it's important for us just to find time to get alone, to find time to be away. And so we had some spectacular bear hunts and then some great fishing for walleye after you tagged out. So those days are probably some of my favorite days with Rob.
Dean Hulce: You know, it reminded me of something else that we do as a ministry. We've just recently, I've been doing it for many years, we've been taking pastors. And pastors that need to get away. Sometimes small church pastors that are sometimes mowing the lawn, sometimes they're shoveling snow, doing plumbing, whatever it takes in small churches. And that's how we started, but any pastor, just letting him go out, being a part of a camp, talking about the things of the Lord without having to lead. And that's so important. All men need that, pastors probably as much as anybody. You said something else that really struck me because you said, "It might've been a little risky what you did with that." And but those are the things that men need to do. We don't do those anymore. You know, we don't teach our kids to do those things to take a little risk, to do the things that isn't easy. You know, we've gotten into a life of just being easy. You know, let's make it as easy as possible. But men 50 years ago, none of them were raised to just be easy. It was get out and do the things. So I would love for you to share the story you shared with me earlier this afternoon about I think it was your second bear or whatever it was, but then what how God used that.
Dr. Thomas White: Yeah, so when you're hunting with buddies, you give each other a hard time, which is great because especially the higher you are up in an organization, people often don't treat you like you're just a normal person anymore. And so hanging out with some of these guys, we just give each other a hard time and they would aggravate me about my first bear being a baby bear. The story I'm going to tell you was about a bear they called the no hair bear. And so we were in a hunt camp in Northern Canada. The guide there was not a believer. He had had some reasons why he questioned God. And so we would always have great theological conversations. I just enjoyed having conversations with him. Really smart individual, but he did not believe in the sovereignty of God. So we had just had a pretty fierce debate back and forth over a meal about the sovereignty of God and he looked me square in the eye and he said, "Do you really believe God is sovereign?" And I responded with, "Absolutely. I believe God is sovereign." And he said, "I'm going to find out." Well, I didn't know what that meant. I would come to find out later that evening what that meant, but he ended up taking me to a spot that we didn't normally hunt. It was way outside of camp. It was in the middle of nowhere. You could tell it hadn't been hunted in a long time. And he just pulled out an old camping chair that folded up and he unfolded it and set it down on the ground and took out the machete and whacked a little small tree over to provide a little bit of cover and then went and it was a baited hunt so he was baiting the barrel. He told me he said, "Well, I'm just going to leave you here and I'll come back and get you at some point." And I said, "Okay." And I was fine. I had my 30-06 and I had my Bible and I had my backpack with me and I was good to go. And so I sat there and what happened just after he pulled out is you could hear bears everywhere. And I was fine with that, but I was sitting on the ground, not up in a stand. Not that a stand really does a whole lot for a bear if it's coming after you, but we were hunting black bears. So I wasn't as concerned about that. But this bear came out and it knew I was there immediately. It knew exactly where I was, it was not surprised, and it was not scared at all. And it went towards the barrel, then it looked at me and started chomping its teeth together making the noise, popping its jaws. Starting making aggressive motions towards me. And so it got a little closer and you know, I'm not far away from the barrel to begin with, but it closed about half that distance and I decided it was time for me to make sure the bear knew I was there. So you stand up and you make yourself big and you do all the things you're supposed to do and you talk loud and don't act like you're scared and all these type things. And I'm doing everything I'm supposed to do. Well, this bear's not going away. And this bear is in the middle, it's female bear, it's in the middle of mating season. The hide is not a hide that anybody would want to keep, which is why they call it the no hair bear. And so this bear gets closer, keeps barking, keeps popping the jaws and chomping its teeth and I had to make up my mind at some point in time I had to decide what's my ultimate goal? What am I after? Am I after a bear that's a trophy or am I after going home to my wife and kids? Because this bear was still coming. And I decided my ultimate goal at that point was to go home safely. And so this bear crossed the line that I had in my mind and I took the shot and it did what it was supposed to do and it wasn't anytime till the guide was back. The guide really hadn't gone anywhere. He was just sitting in his truck taking a nap and so he heard the shot from a 30-06 with a 220-grain bullet at close range. It did its damage. And he came back and he saw this bear and he actually asked me the question when he saw it. He's like, "Why'd you shoot it?" I said, "Well, it got too close. It was just too far in. I didn't want to take the risk." And he said, "Well, you know, we should just take this bear and we should just not tell anybody about this. We should just cover this thing up but leave it here. This is not worth having or harvesting and you just have tell everybody you didn't see anything." And I said, "I can't do that." And he looked at me and I don't know whether he was surprised or angry or what his expression on his face was, but he wasn't happy. And he said, "You realize if you don't do that, then this is your bear." And I said, "Yeah, I realize that, but I can't lie. I can't compromise my integrity over a bear." So again you're right back to what's your goal? What's your goal in life? Is it to please the Lord and serve the Lord and to be a person of integrity or is it to have a trophy? And anybody that's hunted like your listeners have or like you have, you know these trophies are going to fade away. I mean these bear rugs get dust on them and you start having to clean all these animal heads and I told my wife, "Who's going to want these things when I'm gone?" These are my stories. I look and see what these memories are and they're special to me, but not to anybody else. And so I told him I said I can't do that. And he said, "Well then this is your bear." And I said, "Okay, that's fine." We went back to camp and I think the Lord used that in his life some as well, the fact that somebody who called themselves a believer wasn't willing to compromise. But there was another guy in camp that I spent the next few days fishing with. And we had some great conversations over the fact of why wouldn't you just not tell anybody? Well, my integrity to me is more important than a trophy and the trophies are going to fade away. And we had some really good conversations so I think the Lord actually used that in my life clarifying what is it we're really after? What's the most important thing? And in a world full of Instagram and all of these different Facebook news medias hitting us and all these things to ask ourselves the question what's really most important, which goes back to numbering our days, which is one of the things we're supposed to do because we are we have a limited amount of days. I think the Lord impressed that upon me. I think the Lord used that in some others' lives as well to encourage them in their faith and how they could grow in their faith. And then I've actually used it as an illustration before in a sermon as well, just telling the story of the no hair bear. And so I think the Lord gives us stories of that nature to impress upon us spiritual matters. I think that's part of where wisdom comes from too. When you look at the Proverbs, you look at Job and you see all these things, the Lord has created wisdom everywhere or foolishness. And so if we have eyes to see and ears to hear what the Lord's trying to say to us, I think hunting can be used to help us grow in our godliness and as a testimony to help others come to Christ too.
Dean Hulce: And literally I do that almost every day. God gives us those things in our lives and I out-fitted for 38 years. I was a guide all over and I'm always amazed at the memory He's given me for those things. But all those things that He shows us things when we're in the woods. He shows them to us everywhere if our eyes are open. We've got our chairman of the board, Tim, has started writing and he said he never wrote until he met me and he felt challenged. And he said now everywhere I look he said there's a devotional, there's a word of God in a situation. And that's very important because the world's watching us, especially as believers. And somebody in actually my position even as I'm just I'm a nothing I'm just talking into as the old *O Brother, Where Art Thou?* where they're singing in a can. You know that said we're going to sing in a can. I'm just talking into a can and God's given me that place to show, but we're all being watched. Whether you're on the radio, you're on TV, or you're president of a university. You're in a spotlight all the time. And if your integrity is not there, your godly integrity isn't there, and that's true of all of us. I think we need to make that clear, but I think even that no hair bear story is touching people today on the radio because we're all come to a place all the time where we can either do what God calls us to do or not. And we're going to pay when we don't, but we're going to be blessed when we do. I have one more question as for right now anyhow until you say something that brings it up. But your friend told me to ask you about what your biggest goal or your dream hunt, your dream trophy would be.
Dr. Thomas White: Oh, I don't even know why he told you to ask that question. So you know, I think the dream trophy, I would love to do an elk hunt with archery close enough to be able to hear the animals communicating and talking. I think that would be just an incredible dream hunt. And hearing that, saying that, brings up the mind of another hunt that I had with a buddy of his actually, which was I don't do turkey hunting very often. I know some of your listeners probably do. But I had a really hard time in my life at one point in time and I was able to go up to Rob's area and do some turkey hunting with a relative of his who has become a dear friend that we still text back and forth and gosh, I've known him for six years now. Six years ago I went on the turkey hunt. And when I'm out with him turkey hunting, hearing this guy gobble and call in these turkeys and hearing them gobble back, to be able to hear an elk or a larger animal do that I think would just be absolutely amazing. But he's calling in this turkey, but that hunt was supposed to be a two-day, maybe three-days, there's so many birds up here. Next thing you know I'm up there like five days. But I think the whole reason I was there is because I think the Lord wanted me to get to know him well enough to be able to have a long-term relationship so that we could help each other in life. And so I think my ideal hunt has to involve somebody else. I think it has to involve a relationship with another person because I also don't think you can build camaraderie and brotherhood just in a normal conversation or even sharing a meal together. There's something about when you go hunting with somebody and you're on an adventure with somebody or you go through a hard time with somebody, the bonds that are built between men when they overcome a shared objective or when they accomplish something great together, those bonds are much deeper than just a normal friendship. And I think society's missing that right now. I don't think they understand what it's like to go on a great adventure together and have those shared memories. And for me, the trophies that are on the wall, a lot of those trophies when I look at them, I don't necessarily think about the shot or the animal first. I think about the person and the hunt and the laughs and the way that we were able to encourage one another in our walk with Christ. And so that one turkey hunt where I was able to get a great turkey, which means I don't need to go again because it's a really bad time of the school year for me. But going out with a guy's name is Mitch, called it in and able to make that shot and accomplish that has led to a six-year friendship. I don't live in the same state he does. I'm six hours plus away from him, but I bet I have texted back and forth with him 20 times this year over the past few months. And so to me the ideal hunt's going to be about relationships and friendships and camaraderie and the Lord teaching me something or using me to teach somebody else something in that process.
Dean Hulce: I'm amazed you're the first person that I've ever talked to that said what you did about your trophies because my house and Paul's been there, my house and my bunk house or camp in the backyard is full. Linda says it's way too many, but most of them are hers. The biggest ones are hers, believe it or not. But I've always explained that as it's not about that animal as much as more than anything the people that we were with and the time that we had. And I've been blessed for 38 years to be able to do exactly what you're talking about. And that's been time one-on-one with men and couples. Never one-on-one with just me and a woman, we've always made sure that didn't happen to be to just spend that time. And over the last six or seven years, every year at least one of those hunters has come to Christ. And a friend from that actually introduced me to Joe Coy who introduced me to Rob, just last year bear hunted with me. And he's been hunting every year and he's made a decision last year right by right at a place a friend of theirs down there and went over and talked to him and came to Christ. Now he wanted to do that at my camp and I missed out. I mean to me I want to get the selfishness I want to be part of that. But we did, we were part of that over seven or eight years. It was that time sitting one-on-one that he want to know why things were different for us. And that's so important and I think we're missing something else as fathers with sons doing those same things. Because those getting through the hard things, getting figuring things out, you get a hole in a boat and how do you fix it? And I remember my dad showing us how to fix it and how to, you know, how to get through the hard things in life. And hunting does that. And fishing does that as well. You know, fishing and especially back country we go to Canada every year and there's times where things aren't easy. And that's so important in our world today. Tell me about your family.
Dr. Thomas White: Well, that's one of the things I tell my son and my daughter but also all of our students is do the hard thing. And so we as a family, my daughter and son now both run cross country and so we ran cross country because it was teaching how to do the hard things in a world where it's kind of hard to find the hard thing sometimes. And so my daughter recently married and so she is graduated from school in the past May and she's married to a young man named Joshua who's a great young man and they live here nearby. And I have a 15-year-old son who I had the pleasure of taking and teaching how to hunt and I had the opportunity to be with him when he took his first doe and I did it the way that I was taught you were supposed to do it and you have to shoot a doe before you can shoot a buck. And so if you see one, you don't even get chance to take the shot at it, you got to prove you can do it right. Taught him how to track, we skinned and processed the animal ourselves. And so he was able to take, harvest, skin, process, bring home the meat, and then we made spaghetti that evening out of the meat that he had harvested. And so to be able to feed your family, and I don't know what it is and I can't explain it, I'm sure there's something medical about it, I don't understand it, but there's something about the moment when you're able to do that. Maybe it's the adrenaline. Those moments are seared into our mind. And so that's a shared memory that my son and I can talk about the very details. I can still picture every step, even and for me it's special because I can remember all of my hunts and everything that happened when they were successful, but I can remember his success too. And it's just special to be able to pour into somebody else's life in that way. In sports was different for me. In sports I only remembered the failures. If I didn't make the shot, if we lost the game, those were the things that haunted me. In God's Great Outdoors, it's not the failure that haunted me, it was the success that brought joy to me. And so being able to share that with my son. My wife is an animal lover. She loves the outdoors, but she doesn't like to see anything pass away. And so we are complete opposites in that so she won't touch it till it's in the freezer and once I have it bag, tagged, and in the freezer she'll cook it. But she loves animals. Quick story about that, you can cut or use or whatever you want, but in our old house we had a raccoon that fell out of a tree, baby raccoon. Well she took it and brought it into the house and then took it to have it rehabilitated and paid like $50 to rehabilitate this raccoon because she loves all animals. Well she's out of town in Florida and on my game camera for my deer stand that I have less than 100 yards from the house, I saw eight raccoons on the corn. And I decided that's too close the house and that's too many raccoons. So I actually put out some dog food and took care of a few raccoons. And so my .22 caliber bullets cost us a whole lot less than her rehabilitation did and all of those raccoons were no longer at our house. And so we're just very different in that, but she's godly woman, the Lord's blessed me greatly in that, so great family, love the Lord, love opportunity to serve at Cedarville.
Dean Hulce: Well, I will tell you that my wife was like your wife at one time. And now she's well she's starting to lose her interest, but she always shot the biggest buck in camp. And that started one day we said she wanted to go with me on a trip because I was guiding all the time and she our boys were grown she said, "I want to go." And from the night before we were sitting in a tent in Wyoming in the prairie and she said, "I don't even have to shoot anything. This has already been great." Next morning she shot a really nice antelope buck she said that night she went to bed she says, "If we had these at home I might be a violator." She never would, but it switched that quickly. So there is always hope because she loves the meat, but she now she does say now though she said if she doesn't know if she can keep doing it because she's starting to question whether or not she wants to pull the trigger but she still loves hunting. Well, I love your view on hunting and the importance of it. Your responsibility to our kids, but our responsibilities to each other. You know, there's no better place than out in the woods, on the water, to build those relationships and care for one another. There's honesty comes out in those times when nobody else is around to hear and when we can build each other. And I want to share one more thing that I've used with archery that our listeners I don't think I've ever shared it on air but I've spoken on this. Because you were talking about the arrows in the quiver and I've used the arrow, there's three usually three feathers or three fletching on an arrow. And in order for that arrow to fly right, they all have to be there and they have to work together. And I've always used this, and someone said this many, many years ago, but those arrows are what we call the three S's. And that's the saints alongside of us, the Spirit inside us, and the Scripture around us or in front of us. And with those three things, the arrow flies straight. If we can do that with our kids or in our own lives, that the arrow that we are and that our kids are after us will go through life and they will hit the target that God wants. As soon as one of those is pulled off, as you know, the arrow doesn't fly straight anymore. And it's the outdoors, there are almost everything we see in the outdoors we can tie back to some kind of Scripture.
Dr. Thomas White: That's so good. And here on campus we tell all of our students no Bible, no breakfast, just to remind them of the importance of Scripture as you mentioned. And I think sometimes we get busy and we let that discipline go to the side and I think we got to be in the Word every single day if we want to live for the Lord.
Dean Hulce: Yeah, it's so important. Well, thank you for your time. It's been great. It's been all that I had hoped for and as I said, I did get a little bit of insight from some of your friends before I got here, but it's been very enjoyable, very insightful. And I think that if we can live by the things that we've talked about, and I would challenge our listeners to go find a man that needs to have someone alongside of them and spend some time in the woods with them. And if he doesn't know the Lord, just keep loving on him until he sees in our lives what that is. Thank you Paul for joining us as well.
Paul Gathany: My privilege. Thank you.
Dr. Thomas White: Thank you.
Dean Hulce: Thank you to our listeners for joining us. If you have any questions, feel free to drop them to us at godsgreatoutdoors.org. If you have any other any other chance to or need to speak to us, we'd gladly walk you through anything. Consider as your kids are going off to school or you're going off to school to check out Cedarville University because it's a place where God is working and we've seen that just in the little bit we've been here. Thank you for joining us. Join us every week as we head down the trail to adventure in God's Great Outdoors.
Adam: Today we've had a great introduction to both Cedarville University and Dr. White, the president of the university. We hope you've enjoyed the hunting stories and the story of how God's Great Outdoors was introduced to the world on WCDR. Things have changed since that first program played on the air. We've grown from that one young station in Ohio to now being broadcast all across North America and worldwide through the podcast. We were excited to introduce Dr. White to the listeners of God's Great Outdoors and we were blessed to hear about Cedarville and all that is happening there. The adventures of the trustee board and the president in the woods of Northern Ontario and Northern Michigan are not only exciting, but they are enlightening about the need for men to gather and build each other up. If you've enjoyed today's program and would like to hear the extended podcast version, you can find it by looking for Dean Hulce or trail to adventure wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. This program is provided by and can be contacted at God's Great Outdoors, PO Box 414, Powers, Michigan, 49874, or on the website, godsgreatoutdoors.org. We thank all of our listeners for joining us as we celebrate 30 years of this ministry on the trail to adventure in God's Great Outdoors. Here's to another 30 years of sharing the good news of Jesus Christ to outdoor men and women around the world.